龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者第一百零三期：在后現(xiàn)代情境中，被技術(shù)統(tǒng)治的人類社會(huì)，只有強(qiáng)化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰的理論，而是每個(gè)人都應(yīng)實(shí)踐的活動(dòng)。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學(xué)研究中心”。我們會(huì)陸續(xù)推出“龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者”系列文章，請(qǐng)他對(duì)話一些學(xué)界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學(xué)，會(huì)涉及多種學(xué)科。以期深山長(zhǎng)谷之水，四面而出。

澤內(nèi)普·尤雷克利教授（Professor Zeynep Yürekli）

牛津大學(xué)沃夫森學(xué)院伊斯蘭藝術(shù)與建筑副教授、東方研究學(xué)院研究員、博士生導(dǎo)師

龔鵬程教授：您好。您能和我們介紹一下您研究領(lǐng)域和主要興趣嗎？和我們介紹一下中世紀(jì)晚期和現(xiàn)代早期的土庫曼-蒙古伊斯蘭世界的藝術(shù)成就？

澤內(nèi)普·尤雷克利教授：龔教授，您好。我早期階段作為現(xiàn)代伊斯蘭藝術(shù)、建筑和文化的專家，主要關(guān)注 15 至17 世紀(jì)的奧斯曼帝國。我的研究興趣點(diǎn)包括物質(zhì)文化和文本。我研究過宗教建筑、蘇菲派網(wǎng)絡(luò)、贊助模式、插圖手稿、圣徒傳記和歷史寫作。我對(duì)現(xiàn)代早期伊斯蘭王朝（奧斯曼帝國、薩法維王朝、謝班尼王朝和莫臥兒王朝）的文化領(lǐng)域之間的聯(lián)系感興趣，包括文物和文本的交流以及藝術(shù)家、工匠和作家在這些領(lǐng)域之間的流動(dòng)。

同時(shí)，我對(duì)探索奧斯曼世界與歐洲之間的相似性也有興趣。當(dāng)我在在處理物體、建筑物和文本時(shí)，我發(fā)現(xiàn)自己更多思考的是關(guān)于它們背后的人——藝術(shù)家、建筑商、作家；用戶、朝圣者、讀者和贊助人。我研究物質(zhì)文化和文本，因?yàn)樗屛夷軌蚪佑|到幾個(gè)世紀(jì)前人們的思想、目的、品味和情感。

I am a specialist of early modern Islamic art, architecture and culture, with a particular focus on the Ottoman Empire between the fifteenth and seventeenth centuries. My research interests include material culture as well as texts. I have worked on the architecture of religious buildings, Sufi networks, patterns of patronage, illustrated manuscripts, hagiographies and history-writing. I am also more broadly interested in the connections between the cultural realms of the early modern Islamic dynasties (Ottomans, Safavids, Shaybanids and Mughals), including the exchange of artifacts and texts as well as the movement of artists, craftsmen and authors between these realms. At the same time, I am interested in exploring similar connections between the Ottoman world and Europe.

When working on objects, buildings and texts, I find myself thinking mostly about the people behind them – artists, builders, authors; users, pilgrims, readers; and patrons. I work on material culture and texts because it provides me with access to the minds, intentions, tastes and emotions of people who lived and died centuries ago.

龔鵬程教授：您主要使用什么樣的學(xué)術(shù)研究方法，您所在的研究領(lǐng)域面臨的主要挑戰(zhàn)是什么？

澤內(nèi)普·尤雷克利教授：我的方法論通常涉及兩點(diǎn)。 一方面，我試圖從物理性質(zhì)的角度衡量建筑物和文物——包括它們的形式特征、裝飾模式、材料、生產(chǎn)過程以及它們自生產(chǎn)以來所經(jīng)歷的所有改變。另一方面，我使用三種不同語言（奧斯曼土耳其語、波斯語和阿拉伯語）的一系列文本——包括諸如捐贈(zèng)契據(jù)、人口普查登記和通信等檔案材料，諸如編年史和圣徒傳記等敘事來源，以及諸如此類的文學(xué)來源。通過使用這些資源，我的目標(biāo)是對(duì)我所研究的文化產(chǎn)品進(jìn)行背景理解，試圖回答為什么以及如何（而不僅僅是在哪里、何時(shí)和由誰）在現(xiàn)代早期制作、使用并且解釋它們。

我在物理層面上衡量物體和建筑物時(shí)，會(huì)根據(jù)不同的介質(zhì)使用相應(yīng)的方法。例如，在檢查手稿的物理方面時(shí)，我首先會(huì)瀏覽所有頁面，看看是否有改動(dòng)。任何缺失或錯(cuò)位的頁面、任何更改或添加的情況對(duì)于了解手稿的歷史都極為重要。

綁定同樣重要。在大多數(shù)情況下，裝訂會(huì)在后期更換，這可以通過檢查裝訂本身并在頁面上尋找任何裁剪跡象來確定，這將是手稿被反彈的確定跡象。我檢查手稿的末尾是否有版權(quán)頁，并注意那里提供的信息，其中可能包括抄寫員的姓名以及他/她完成文本的日期和地點(diǎn)。然后我會(huì)檢查表明所有權(quán)的注釋和印章印記，我們經(jīng)常可以在手稿的第一頁找到它們（盡管印章印記也可以在其他頁面上找到），因?yàn)樗鼈優(yōu)槭指宓某鎏幪峁┝酥匾淖C明。

我記下文本塊的尺寸、頁面上的行數(shù)、流行語的位置和角度（您在頁面角落找到的單詞，以幫助活頁夾正確識(shí)別下一頁），以及線之間的測(cè)量值。

我仔細(xì)查看紙張（通過在頁面上照射光線）并繪制草圖，指示鏈線和任何水印之間的距離。當(dāng)我想比較不同收藏中的手稿時(shí)，這些筆記和草圖非常重要，因?yàn)楫?dāng)一個(gè)在巴黎而另一個(gè)在伊斯坦布爾時(shí)，我無法將它們放在一起看！

相似的物理特性有時(shí)表明兩個(gè)或多個(gè)手稿是在同一個(gè)工作室和同一個(gè)團(tuán)隊(duì)中制作的。

水印對(duì)于日期也很重要。早期現(xiàn)代伊斯蘭世界使用了大量歐洲（主要是意大利）紙張。通過對(duì)照歐洲出版物中使用的紙張檢查水印，我們可以為沒有帶日期的版權(quán)頁的手稿設(shè)置一個(gè)大致日期。如果可能的話，我還會(huì)詳細(xì)檢查裝飾方面和插圖，并在允許的情況下拍攝重要細(xì)節(jié)的特寫照片。

在處理文本時(shí)，我所在領(lǐng)域面臨的主要挑戰(zhàn)是在早期現(xiàn)代伊斯蘭世界沒有印刷機(jī)，我們擁有的都是手稿形式。

同樣，我根據(jù)類型和流派使用不同的方法。例如，對(duì)于像圣徒傳記這樣的敘事來源，我盡可能多地閱讀和比較最早的手稿，因?yàn)槌瓕戝e(cuò)誤、插補(bǔ)和遺漏非常常見。

在解讀敘事文本時(shí)，我總是考慮作者的情況、他/她的意圖和目標(biāo)讀者群。

My methodology generally involves doing two things at the same time. On the one hand, I seek to thoroughly examine buildings and artifacts in terms of their physicality – including their formal characteristics, decorative modes, materials, production processes and any alterations they underwent since the time of production. On the other hand, I work with an array of texts in three different languages (Ottoman Turkish, Persian and Arabic) – including archival material such as endowment deeds, census registers and correspondence, narrative sources such as chronicles and hagiographies, and literary sources such as poetry. By using these sources, I aim to achieve a contextual understanding of the cultural products that I study, trying to answer why and how (and not just where, when and by whom) they were made, used and interpreted in the early modern period.

When examining objects and buildings physically, I use various methods depending on medium. For example, when examining the physical aspects of a manuscript, I first go through all the pages to see if there have been any alterations. Any missing or misplaced pages, any signs of alteration or additions are extremely important for understanding the history of a manuscript. The binding is equally important. In most cases, the binding is replaced at a later stage, and this can be ascertained by examining the binding itself and by looking for any signs of cropping on the pages, which would be a sure sign that the manuscript was rebound. I check the end of the manuscript for a colophon and note the information provided there, which may include the name of the scribe and the date and place he/she completed the text. I then examine the notes and seal impressions indicating ownership which we can often find on the first pages of a manuscript (though seal impressions can be found on other pages as well), as they provide important testimonies to the provenance of the manuscript. I make a note of the measurements of the text block, the number of lines on a page, the location and angle of any catchwords (the words that you find on the corner of a page to help the binder to identify the next page correctly), and the measurement between the lines. I look carefully at the paper (by shining a light through the pages) and make sketches indicating the distance between chainlines and any watermarks. These notes and sketches are extremely important when I want to compare manuscripts that are in different collections, as I can’t look at them together when one is in Paris and another one is in Istanbul! Similar physical qualities sometimes indicate that two or more manuscripts were produced in the same workshop and by the same team. Watermarks are also important for dating. A lot of European (mostly Italian) paper was used in the early modern Islamic world. By checking the watermarks against the paper used in dated European publications we can suggest an approximate date for a manuscript that does not have a colophon with a date. If available, I also examine decorative aspects and illustrations in detail and take close-up pictures of significant details if allowed.

When working with texts, the main challenge for my field is that the printing press was not used in the early modern Islamic world and everything we have is in manuscript form. Again, I use different methods according to the type and genre. For example, for a narrative source such as a hagiography, I read and compare as many of the earliest manuscripts as possible because scribal errors, interpolations and omissions were very common. When interpreting narrative texts, I always consider the circumstances of the author, his/her intentions and the intended readership.

龔鵬程教授：您談過威尼斯觀眾對(duì)土耳其的繪畫的反應(yīng)。中國對(duì)伊斯蘭美術(shù)之接受亦甚早，例如元代青花瓷器，主要就是伊斯蘭圖式。您如何看待中國伊斯蘭建筑？您認(rèn)為中國伊斯蘭建筑與突厥-蒙古世界的建筑有聯(lián)系嗎？

澤內(nèi)普·尤雷克利教授：在建筑方面，建立聯(lián)系更難了，但在裝飾模式和技術(shù)方面，由于歐亞大陸與貿(mào)易路線的相互聯(lián)系，中國藝術(shù)對(duì)伊斯蘭世界的影響從伊斯蘭教的最初幾個(gè)世紀(jì)就很明顯了。

通過伊斯蘭世界從中國跑到歐洲。我覺得最迷人的是，在 13 世紀(jì)蒙古征服之后，中國的裝飾圖案和圖案模式成為伊斯蘭世界文化的一部分。蒙古元朝在北京結(jié)束，那里的翰林書院的活動(dòng)（包括歷史寫作和繪畫）似乎為伊朗蒙古伊爾汗王朝的充滿活力的文化環(huán)境的繁榮提供了動(dòng)力。所謂的波斯畫，很大程度上要?dú)w功于中國畫。

我們發(fā)現(xiàn)在建筑中很難看到聯(lián)系的原因，可能是建筑本質(zhì)上是一種非常保守的媒介。 建筑結(jié)構(gòu)不能過于有創(chuàng)意，因?yàn)槭紫人鼈儽仨毐３滞暾绻诿髂杲ㄖ顾?，那么建造一座美麗的建筑就沒有意義了。因此，在鋼筋混凝土出現(xiàn)之前，我們幾乎看不到建筑結(jié)構(gòu)的創(chuàng)新。使用特定地區(qū)可用材料的已建立、經(jīng)過測(cè)試的建筑方法可以持續(xù)幾個(gè)世紀(jì)而幾乎沒有變化。我們看到更多創(chuàng)意的地方是建筑裝飾。從 14 世紀(jì)開始，大伊朗和安納托利亞的建筑裝飾——以灰泥、瓷磚、石刻和木制品執(zhí)行——通常使用被稱為 Khitai（字面意思是國泰風(fēng)格）的中國裝飾元素。

The Bektashi order of dervishes emerged in the fifteenth century from a number of marginalised groups who came together under the umbrella of veneration for the medieval saint Hac? Bekta?. The circumstances of the emergence of this social network were closely related to the consolidation of the Ottoman empire. When the Ottoman polity moved away from the decentralised frontier culture and became a centralised empire after the conquest of Constantinople in 1453, certain social groups felt themselves under threat. These included antinomian dervishes who were considered heretical by the orthodox religious establishment, villagers whose religious practices were at odds with the same establishment, and frontier warriors whose influence was curbed by the establishment of a centralised army. Seen in this light, the Bektashi order can be seen as a pact between these disparate social groups, who came together in yearly festivals held at two shrines in Anatolia: the shrine of Hac? Bekta? himself, and the shrine of Battal Gazi, an early Islamic warrior who was cherished by frontier warriors.

During the sixteenth century, the Bektashi order included a number of shrines in Anatolia and the Balkans. The shrine of Hac? Bekta? was considered the centre of this network. The shrine had a tumultuous period in the sixteenth century because of the ongoing Ottoman-Safavid conflict. Some Bektashis pledged allegiance to the Safavids, whilst others advocated loyalty to the Ottomans. The leadership of the shrine (and, by extension, of the Bektashi network) was contested among various groups who considered themselves the true heirs of Hac? Bekta?. Thus, to the question “Who are the Bektashi?” there never was an answer which everyone agreed on. In my book, I tried to show how the twists and turns of early modern religiopolitics contributed to the complexity of Bektashi identity, which we can see in hagiographies, and made Bektashi shrines significant players in empire-wide politics.

龔鵬程教授：您的專著《奧斯曼帝國的建筑與圣徒傳記：古典時(shí)代別克塔什神社的政治》（‘Architecture and Hagiography in the Ottoman Empire: The Politics of Bektashi Shrines in the Classical Age’ ）討論了別克塔什神社的重要性。那么，請(qǐng)問Bektashi是誰？

澤內(nèi)普·尤雷克利教授：Bektashi是在15世紀(jì)出現(xiàn)的邊緣化群體，他們?cè)趯?duì)中世紀(jì)圣人 Hac? Bekta? 的崇敬下集合到了一起。這種社交網(wǎng)絡(luò)的出現(xiàn)，與奧斯曼帝國的鞏固密切相關(guān)。當(dāng)奧斯曼政體在 1453 年征服君士坦丁堡后，擺脫分散的邊疆文化并成為中央集權(quán)帝國時(shí)，某些社會(huì)群體感到自己受到威脅。其中包括被正統(tǒng)宗教機(jī)構(gòu)視為異端的反律法苦行僧、宗教習(xí)俗與同一機(jī)構(gòu)不一致的村民，以及因建立中央集權(quán)的軍隊(duì)而受到遏制的邊疆戰(zhàn)士。

從這個(gè)角度來看，Bektashi教團(tuán)可以被視為這些不同社會(huì)群體之間的契約，他們?cè)诎布{托利亞的兩個(gè)圣地舉行的年度節(jié)日中聚集在一起：Hac? Bekta? 本人的圣地和 Battal Gazi 的圣地，早期的伊斯蘭邊疆戰(zhàn)士所珍視的戰(zhàn)士。

在16 世紀(jì)，Bektashi 秩序，包括安納托利亞和巴爾干地區(qū)的一些神社。Hac? Bekta? 神殿被認(rèn)為是這個(gè)網(wǎng)絡(luò)的中心。由于持續(xù)的奧斯曼-薩法維沖突，這座神殿在 16 世紀(jì)經(jīng)歷了一段動(dòng)蕩的時(shí)期。一些貝克塔西人宣誓效忠薩法維王朝，而另一些人則主張效忠奧斯曼帝國。神社的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)權(quán)（以及延伸到 Bektashi 網(wǎng)絡(luò)）在各種認(rèn)為自己是 Hac? Bekta? 真正繼承人的群體之間進(jìn)行了爭(zhēng)奪。

因此，對(duì)于“誰是 Bektashi？”這個(gè)問題。從來沒有一個(gè)所有人都同意的答案。在我的書中，我試圖展示早期現(xiàn)代宗教政治的曲折和轉(zhuǎn)變?nèi)绾未俪闪宋覀冊(cè)谑ネ絺饔浿锌吹降腂ektashi 身份的復(fù)雜性，并使 Bektashi 神社成為帝國政治的重要參與者。

In architecture, the connections are more difficult to establish, but in terms of decorative modes and techniques, the influence of Chinese art in the Islamic world is evident from the earliest centuries of Islam, due to the interconnected nature of the Eurasian landmass with trade routes running from China to Europe via the Islamic world. What I find most fascinating is that Chinese decorative motifs and pictorial modes become a part of the culture of the Islamic world all the way to the Middle East after the Mongol conquests of the thirteenth century. The Mongol Yuan dynasty was passed in Beijing, and the activities of the Han-Lin academy there (including history-writing as well as painting) seem may have provided the impetus for the flourishing of a very vibrant cultural milieu under the Mongol Ilkhanids in Iran. What is generally known as Persian painting owes a great deal to Chinese painting.

The reason that we find it more difficult to see connections in architecture is probably that architecture is a very conservative medium by its nature. Architectural structures cannot be too creative, because first and foremost, they have to stay intact – there is no point in having a beautiful building if it collapses the next year. Before the advent of reinforced concrete, therefore, we see very little innovation in architectural structures. Established, tested methods of building with the material available in a certain region could continue for centuries with very little change. Where we see a lot more creativity is architectural decoration. The decoration of buildings in greater Iran and Anatolia from the fourteenth century onwards – executed in stucco, tiles, carved stone and woodwork – typically use Chinese decorative elements, which were referred to as Khitai (literally meaning Cathay-style).

龔鵬程教授：您目前在牛津大學(xué)東方研究學(xué)院工作。該學(xué)院的主要活動(dòng)是什么？ 您喜歡那里的工作環(huán)境嗎？[請(qǐng)注意：自 2022 年 8 月 1 日起，經(jīng)過兩年的激烈討論，學(xué)院將更名為亞洲和中東研究學(xué)院。]

澤內(nèi)普·尤雷克利教授：我們有阿拉伯語、漢語、埃及學(xué)和古代近東研究、希伯來語、日語、猶太研究、波斯語、梵語和土耳其語的本科課程。 在每門課程中，都有非常強(qiáng)大的語言學(xué)習(xí)機(jī)制，使我們的學(xué)生能夠以所選語言交談、書寫和閱讀主要資源。

該課程的第二年，在海外學(xué)生繼續(xù)學(xué)習(xí)該語言的國家/地區(qū)。每個(gè)課程還包括課程所關(guān)注地區(qū)的歷史、文學(xué)和文化培訓(xùn)。

除此之外，我們還有許多碩士課程，包括我與同事一起教授的伊斯蘭藝術(shù)和建筑課程，以及非常嚴(yán)格的博士 (DPhil) 課程。

深入涵蓋所有這些領(lǐng)域，意味著我們是一個(gè)龐大的師資隊(duì)伍，包括專門研究語言學(xué)、語言教學(xué)、文學(xué)、歷史（包括藝術(shù)史）的每個(gè)學(xué)科的同事。我們圍繞著各種“主題組”進(jìn)行組織。

我所屬的“學(xué)科組”稱為阿拉伯語、波斯語和土耳其語研究。

我們教師的跨學(xué)科組成和精神非常適合我的方法論。當(dāng)我使用文本與使用物體和建筑物一樣多時(shí)，我發(fā)現(xiàn)教師對(duì)語言和文本的關(guān)注極大地豐富了內(nèi)容。在這方面，我認(rèn)為它比我在典型的藝術(shù)史系找到的研究環(huán)境要好得多。

雖然我的研究主要集中在奧斯曼世界，但我對(duì)與其他領(lǐng)域的聯(lián)系很感興趣，因此，與從伊朗到印度和中國的世界領(lǐng)先的文學(xué)和文化專家的同事一起工作是無價(jià)的。我也很高興能教到很多優(yōu)秀的研究生。幫助新興學(xué)者進(jìn)行研究，意味著我從他們身上學(xué)到的東西和他們從我身上學(xué)到的東西一樣多。

自從我上大學(xué)以來，我一直覺得花一天時(shí)間學(xué)習(xí)卻沒有學(xué)到新的知識(shí)是一種浪費(fèi)。我感到非常幸運(yùn)，我從來沒有度過這樣的一天。

We have undergraduate programmes inArabic, Chinese, Egyptology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies, Hebrew, Japanese, Jewish Studies, Persian, Sanskrit and Turkish. In each of these courses, there is a very strong language-learning component that enables our students to converse, write and read primary sources in the chosen language. The second year of the course is taken as a Year Abroad in a country where the students continue to learn the language. Each programme also includes training in the history, literature and culture of the region that the course focuses on. In addition to these, we have a number of master’s programmes, including one in Islamic Art and Architecture which I teach with my colleagues, and a very rigorous doctoral (DPhil) programme.

Covering all these areas in depth means that we are a huge faculty, including colleagues specialising in linguistics, language-teaching, literature, history (including art history) for each of these subjects. We are organized around various ‘subject groups’. The ‘subject group’ that I belong to is called Arabic, Persian and Turkish Studies.

The interdisciplinary composition and ethos of our faculty suits my methodology perfectly. As I work with texts as much as I work with objects and buildings, I find the faculty’s focus on languages and texts hugely enriching. In that respect I consider it a much better milieu for my research than I would find in a typical art history department. Although my research has a focus on the Ottoman world, I am interested in connections with other realms, and therefore, working with colleagues who are world-leading experts on literatures and cultures from Iran to India and China is priceless. I also enjoy the fact that I get to teach a lot of excellent postgraduate students. Helping emerging scholars with their research means that I learn as much from them as they learn from me. Ever since I started university, I have felt that a day spent learning nothing new is a day wasted. I feel very lucky that I never have such a day at work.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺(tái)北，臺(tái)灣師范大學(xué)博士，當(dāng)代著名學(xué)者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學(xué)、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規(guī)劃城市建設(shè)、主題園區(qū)等多處。講學(xué)于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺(tái)北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展?，F(xiàn)為中國孔子博物館名譽(yù)館長(zhǎng)、臺(tái)灣國立東華大學(xué)終身榮譽(yù)教授、美國龔鵬程基金會(huì)主席。