龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者第一百零一期：在后現(xiàn)代情境中，被技術(shù)統(tǒng)治的人類(lèi)社會(huì)，只有強(qiáng)化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰(shuí)的理論，而是每個(gè)人都應(yīng)實(shí)踐的活動(dòng)。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過(guò)“世界漢學(xué)研究中心”。我們會(huì)陸續(xù)推出“龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者”系列文章，請(qǐng)他對(duì)話一些學(xué)界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學(xué)，會(huì)涉及多種學(xué)科。以期深山長(zhǎng)谷之水，四面而出。

馬克·奇克森特米哈伊教授（Professor Mark Csikszentmihalyi）

加州大學(xué)伯克利分校國(guó)際關(guān)系講席教授，宗教研究項(xiàng)目主任。

龔鵬程教授：您好。您《物質(zhì)美德：早期中國(guó)的倫理與身體》一書(shū)談到了五行及人體的道德反應(yīng)等等，十分精彩。但五行觀念可能是戰(zhàn)國(guó)晚期才流行，早期儒、道、墨、法、名、兵各家似乎都還沒(méi)太談到五行學(xué)說(shuō)，而陰陽(yáng)五行主要運(yùn)用于宇宙論方面，五行與倫理學(xué)和身體觀的連結(jié)，好像更晚些。您覺(jué)得呢？

馬克·奇克森特米哈伊教授：龔教授，您好。您的問(wèn)題呼應(yīng)了已故科學(xué)史學(xué)家南森·席文提出的許多觀點(diǎn)，他的工作將自然周期歷史化，形成了一些人口中的中國(guó)"關(guān)聯(lián)宇宙論 "的基礎(chǔ)。

然而，將"五行 "確定為宇宙論是在講述關(guān)于它的某個(gè)故事，暗示它是基于對(duì)自然的觀察，然后通過(guò)類(lèi)比應(yīng)用到其他領(lǐng)域。

在他關(guān)于"自然主義者 "的文章中，席文批判性地看了這個(gè)假設(shè)。雖然我不認(rèn)為有近乎足夠的證據(jù)來(lái)確定這種五行組合范例是行星、內(nèi)臟、核心的音樂(lè)音調(diào)、味道還是美德，但席文的工作鼓勵(lì)我們質(zhì)疑這種假設(shè)，即自然哲學(xué)應(yīng)被默認(rèn)為在當(dāng)時(shí)是首要的。

談到我自己的工作，我試圖在《物質(zhì)美德》中提出的一點(diǎn)是，美德是以一種特殊的方式結(jié)構(gòu)化的：《孟子》的四種美德可能在第五個(gè)術(shù)語(yǔ)中達(dá)到高潮，即圣。從結(jié)構(gòu)上看，這些五行與歷史圖式中五行的循環(huán)模式不同，后者也與醫(yī)學(xué)傳統(tǒng)中的規(guī)范平衡概念相聯(lián)系。

換句話說(shuō)，盡管所有這些都以數(shù)字五為特征，但這并不意味著它們都是一個(gè)主題的變化。更具體地說(shuō)，這些不同的五行結(jié)構(gòu)可能是沿著不同的途徑發(fā)展起來(lái)的，然后在秦漢大一統(tǒng)時(shí)被綜合起來(lái)。

Your question echoes many points made by the late Historian of Science Nathan Sivin, whose work historicizing the natural cycles that formed the basis of what some have called Chinese “correlative cosmology.” Yet, to identify thewu xing as cosmological is to tell a certain story about it, implying it was based on the observation of Nature, and then later was applied by analogy to other realms. In his essay on the “Naturalists,” Sivin looked critically at that assumption. While I do not think that there is nearly enough evidence to determine whether the paradigmatic fivefold set was planets, viscera, the core musical tones, flavors, or virtues, Sivin’s work encourages us to question the assumption that natural philosophy should be assumed to be temporally primary by default.

Turning to my own work, one point that I try to bring out inMaterial Virtue is that the virtues are structured in a particular way: the four virtues of the Mengzi may culminate in a fifth term, sheng or sagehood. Structurally, these wu xing differ from the cyclical model of the wu xing in historical schemata, which was also coupled with the concept of normative equilibrium in medical traditions. In other words, though all of these feature the number five, it does not mean that they are all variations on a single theme. More concretely, these different fivefold structures may have developed along separate pathways before being synthesized around the Qin-Han unification.

龔鵬程教授：您的新作《孔子：新傳統(tǒng)》，利用海昏侯墓里的資料來(lái)討論孔子形象，十分新穎，令人佩服，比中國(guó)內(nèi)地學(xué)者速度還要快呀！可是您具體指哪些方面是新的傳統(tǒng)呢？

馬克·奇克森特米哈伊教授：這本書(shū)是在劍橋大學(xué)杰出的古典學(xué)教授保羅·卡特利奇邀請(qǐng)我為一個(gè)名為"古代生活 "的系列撰寫(xiě)一卷時(shí)產(chǎn)生的。我非常高興能被納入其中，因?yàn)檫@種系列往往有偏見(jiàn)，而且僅限于古代歐洲。由于楊軍（音譯）和王春寧（音譯）的大方無(wú)私，我有機(jī)會(huì)在疫情前看到海昏侯墓和它的一些內(nèi)容，作為一個(gè)思想史學(xué)家，我開(kāi)始為有機(jī)會(huì)看這樣一套完全有背景的材料而著迷。

"新傳統(tǒng)"這一短語(yǔ)意在有兩種不同的內(nèi)涵。第一個(gè)是指在劉賀墓中圍繞孔子和他的一些弟子的傳統(tǒng)的新發(fā)現(xiàn)，而劉賀曾在很短的時(shí)間內(nèi)當(dāng)過(guò)漢朝的皇帝。

對(duì)歷史學(xué)家來(lái)說(shuō)，這是一個(gè)關(guān)于圣人的"新 "記載，也是最早的傳記手稿，大約可以追溯到司馬遷的《孔子世家》（與之有許多共同的特點(diǎn)）。

同時(shí)，我認(rèn)為，我們與孔子相關(guān)的傳統(tǒng)是不斷被改造的，早期帝國(guó)對(duì)孔子生活的看法是以文化為媒介從西漢宮廷的各種材料中選出的"新 "內(nèi)容。

事實(shí)上，后來(lái)的每個(gè)時(shí)代都以不同的方式對(duì)孔子的形象進(jìn)行了更改。

The book came about whenPaul Cartledge, the distinguished professor of Classics at the University of Cambridge, invited me to contribute a volume to a series called “Ancient Lives.” I was very happy to be included, because often such series are biased and restricted to Ancient Europe. Thanks to the generosity of Yang Jun and Wang Chuning, I had the opportunity to see the Haihunhou tomb and some of its content prior to the pandemic, and, as an intellectual historian, I became fascinated by the opportunity to look at such a completely contextualized set of materials.

The phrase “new tradition” is intended to have two different connotations. The first refers to the new discovery of traditions surrounding Confucius and a number of his disciples at the tomb of Liu He, who was for a very brief period emperor of the Han. For historians, this is a “new” account of the Sage, and also the earliest manuscript biography, dating to around the time of Sima Qian’s biography of Confucius (with which it shares many features.) At the same time, I argue that the traditions we associate with Confucius are continually remade, and that the early imperial vision of his life was a “new” culturally-mediated selection from a variety of materials that were available to the Western Han court. In fact, each subsequent era has revised the images of Confucius in different ways.

龔鵬程教授：在戰(zhàn)國(guó)時(shí)期，孔子主要的形象，一是博學(xué)君子、二是詩(shī)禮傳承者、三是五百年才能有的圣人。漢代，孔子作為集古代文化之大成者，和“為漢代新王創(chuàng)制立法”者，卻有了分歧。今古文家就意見(jiàn)不同。您從“新傳統(tǒng)”這個(gè)角度談孔子，和這個(gè)古老的爭(zhēng)論有關(guān)嗎？

馬克·奇克森特米哈伊教授：是的，這正是我想說(shuō)的一點(diǎn)。在漢朝，我們已經(jīng)有了多種版本的孔子。像《禮記》這樣的禮儀匯編的整理，將他描繪成周代禮儀和傳統(tǒng)的專(zhuān)家，并傳遞了孔子的一個(gè)形象。

公羊傳統(tǒng)的《春秋》以及讖緯文本將孔子與政治合法性的主張緊密聯(lián)系在一起，有些甚至將他描繪成一個(gè)先知。

這些形象并非毫無(wú)關(guān)聯(lián)，而是不同的社會(huì)群體利用他們所掌握的多種資料，創(chuàng)造出符合其目的的肖像。

在西漢宮廷，我們看到《論語(yǔ)》在培養(yǎng)太子的背景下獲得了關(guān)注。

此外，根據(jù)《?；韬顐鳌泛屯醭涞闹鳎覀冎揽鬃雍退牡茏颖蛔鳛闈h朝統(tǒng)治者及其大臣的榜樣。

具體來(lái)說(shuō)，墓中的材料表明，孔子評(píng)估其弟子品行的能力是使他成為皇帝的榜樣的一個(gè)關(guān)鍵品質(zhì)。正如司馬遷所敘述的那樣，這位圣人說(shuō)"政在選臣"（為政最重要的是選擇好大臣）。

Yes, this is exactly the point that I am trying to make. During the Han, we already have multiple versions of Confucius. The collation of ritual compendia like the classicLi ji portray him as an expert in the rites and conventions of the Zhou period, and transmit one image of Confucius. The Gongyang tradition of the classic Spring and Autumn, as well as the chen wei (“apocryphal”) texts, tie Confucius very closely to claims of political legitimacy, and some even portray him as a prophet. These images are not unrelated, but different social groups adapted the multiple sources at their disposal to create portraits that served their purposes.

At the Western Han court, we see theAnalects gaining attention in the context of the training of the crown prince. Further, in light of the Haihun hou biographies and the writings of Wang Chong, we know that Confucius and his disciples were taken as examples for the Han ruler and his ministers. Specifically, the tomb materials suggest that Confucius’ ability to assess his disciples’ character was a key quality that made him a model for the emperor. As Sima Qian recounts, the sage said that: “good government lies in the selection of ministers”.

龔鵬程教授：中國(guó)早期民族很紛紜，夷夏羌苗，后來(lái)才融合成了“漢”。可是這個(gè)融合，事實(shí)上也是一個(gè)拋棄的過(guò)程。例如漢初劉項(xiàng)集團(tuán)楚人獨(dú)多，誦楚辭作楚歌便成一時(shí)之時(shí)髦。可是楚語(yǔ)楚辭后來(lái)也未擺脫方言之地位。同樣，楚辭中東皇太一、司命、云中君、東君、湘君ˇ等神祇也沒(méi)成為普遍的信仰。所以當(dāng)時(shí)到底是一個(gè)什么樣的融合、重新塑造過(guò)程，確實(shí)令人好奇。事實(shí)上，這也是大家對(duì)您《漢族思想讀本》異常感興趣的地方，您可以稍作闡述嗎？

馬克·奇克森特米哈伊教授：每當(dāng)有細(xì)心的讀者發(fā)現(xiàn)該書(shū)的這一微妙之處，我都很感激。

在問(wèn)題中，您提到了我關(guān)于漢族統(tǒng)一不同信仰的論點(diǎn)。您還提出了一個(gè)問(wèn)題：為什么楚國(guó)文化的某些方面能夠持續(xù)存在并成為漢族"大熔爐 "的一部分，而另一些方面卻似乎消失了？

關(guān)于楚國(guó)的問(wèn)題，我聽(tīng)從張正明、大衛(wèi)·霍克斯和戈帕爾·蘇庫(kù)等楚國(guó)文化學(xué)者的意見(jiàn)，因?yàn)槌?guó)的地域文化不是我的重點(diǎn)。霍克斯認(rèn)為《楚辭》中的 《九歌 》是公元前三世紀(jì)的楚國(guó)宮廷歌曲。我同意這些戰(zhàn)國(guó)晚期楚歌中的神殿不是漢族文化的核心，但另一方面，來(lái)自成都平原的人物在西漢文學(xué)和文化中發(fā)揮著重要作用。

問(wèn)題是，這兩種現(xiàn)象中哪一種更能代表楚文化？

退一步說(shuō)，從全局來(lái)看，漢文化的融合方面，也不僅僅是包括地方文化的各個(gè)方面。強(qiáng)調(diào)"道 "是無(wú)數(shù)技術(shù)的總和，是一種認(rèn)識(shí)論策略，將不同的、可能是矛盾的觀點(diǎn)同化為統(tǒng)一的、整體的觀點(diǎn)。在這個(gè)意義上，融合本身成為一種概念工具，對(duì)漢代以后的中國(guó)哲學(xué)產(chǎn)生了影響。

I am grateful whenever a careful reader picks up on this subtle aspect of the book. In the question, you refer to my argument about the Han unification of different beliefs. You also pose a question: why do some aspects of Chu culture endure and become part of the Han “melting pot,” and others seem to disappear? On the question of Chu, I defer to scholars of Chu culture like Zhang Zhengming, David Hawkes and Gopal Sukhu, since Chu regional culture is not a focus of mine. Hawkes identifies the “Nine Songs” from theChu ci as Chu court songs from third century BCE. I agree that the pantheon in these late Warring States Chu songs is not central to Han culture, but on the other hand, figures from the Chengdu plain play a major role in Western Han literature and culture. The question becomes, which of these two phenomena better represents Chu culture?

Taking a step back to look at the entire picture, the synthetic aspect of Han culture is also more than just a matter of including aspects of local cultures. The emphasis on the Dao as the sum of myriad techniques is an epistemological strategy for assimilating different and potentially contradictory perspectives into a unified, holistic viewpoint. In that sense, synthesis itself becomes a conceptual tool that has an impact on Chinese philosophy from Han times forward.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺(tái)北，臺(tái)灣師范大學(xué)博士，當(dāng)代著名學(xué)者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學(xué)、出版社、雜志社、書(shū)院等，并規(guī)劃城市建設(shè)、主題園區(qū)等多處。講學(xué)于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺(tái)北、巴黎、日本、澳門(mén)等地舉辦過(guò)書(shū)法展?，F(xiàn)為中國(guó)孔子博物館名譽(yù)館長(zhǎng)、美國(guó)龔鵬程基金會(huì)主席。