龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者第九十四期：在后現(xiàn)代情境中，被技術(shù)統(tǒng)治的人類社會(huì)，只有強(qiáng)化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰的理論，而是每個(gè)人都應(yīng)實(shí)踐的活動(dòng)。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學(xué)研究中心”。我們會(huì)陸續(xù)推出“龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者”系列文章，請(qǐng)他對(duì)話一些學(xué)界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學(xué)，會(huì)涉及多種學(xué)科。以期深山長谷之水，四面而出。

祈立天（Tim Clissold）

英國著名作家，有多本中國相關(guān)著述。他曾接受過中國中央電視臺(tái)的專訪。

龔鵬程教授：您好。您為什么要寫《中國先生》《中國規(guī)則》和《云室》這樣三本關(guān)于中國的書？

祈立天：龔教授，您好。我寫每本書都有不同的原因。我按時(shí)間順序?yàn)槟v述：

《中國先生》：20世紀(jì)90年代，我在中國有一段非常復(fù)雜和不尋常的經(jīng)歷，我負(fù)責(zé)了4.18億美元的投資。這項(xiàng)投資包括在北京、江蘇、廣東、四川、山西、河北、湖北、湖南和安徽的20家合資企業(yè)，它們遇到了多個(gè)嚴(yán)重問題。我覺得在中國損失，然后追回如此巨額資金的經(jīng)歷，值得向西方人講述，因?yàn)樗砻髦袊囊?guī)則和社會(huì)規(guī)范與西方不同，我認(rèn)為這是西方人與中國打交道應(yīng)該知道的。

《中國規(guī)則》：在反思了《中國先生》的教訓(xùn)后，我在多年后寫了這本書。我試圖解釋我在書中發(fā)現(xiàn)的中國規(guī)則和社會(huì)規(guī)范，把某些行為與中國文明的歷史經(jīng)驗(yàn)聯(lián)系起來。換句話說，我試圖強(qiáng)調(diào)中國人的歷史經(jīng)驗(yàn)的各個(gè)方面，這些經(jīng)驗(yàn)導(dǎo)致他們的行為略微不同，并且（從西方人的角度來看）不可預(yù)測(cè)。這樣西方人就可以理解和聯(lián)系這些原因，而不是僅僅認(rèn)為中國人作為人在本質(zhì)上是不同的。

《云室》：通過《云室》，我選擇了杜甫、李白、蘇東坡、梅堯臣、李煜、柳宗元、白居易和王安石寫的大約70首詩，并將它們翻譯成英文。我選擇了那些涉及任何人類都能理解的主題，并且符合當(dāng)代西方人關(guān)切的詩歌。例如，柳宗元寫的是森林過度采伐的危險(xiǎn)。杜甫后期在逃難，所以他的作品與當(dāng)下一些歐洲人的想法非常一致。白居易寫的是社會(huì)不公、《賣炭翁》和逃稅。還有一些關(guān)于愛和渴望、人與自然的互動(dòng)以及生命的真正意義的詩，所以我選擇了我認(rèn)為會(huì)引起西方人共鳴的詩。

我寫了一篇文章，將這些中世紀(jì)的中國詩歌與現(xiàn)代西方科學(xué)（量子物理學(xué)）聯(lián)系起來。這本書的目的是研究人類生活的共同主題，并得出結(jié)論，盡管我們有不同的歷史經(jīng)歷，有不同的傳統(tǒng)和做事方式，但本質(zhì)上我們都是一樣的。

I had different reasons for writing each book. In chronological order:

Mr China: I had a very complicated and unusual experience in China during the 1990’s where I was responsible for an investment of $418 million. The investment included 20 joint ventures in Beijing, Jiangsu, Guangdong, Sichuan, Shanxi, Hebei, Hubei, Hunan and Anhui and they ran into multiple serious problems. I felt that the experience of losing and then recovering such a huge amount of money in China was worth telling to Westerners because it showed that the rules and social norms in China are different from the West and I thought that was something Westerns dealing with China should know.

Chinese Rules: I wrote this book many years later after reflecting on the lessons from ‘Mr China.’ I tried to explain the Chinese rules and social norms I had found in that book by linking certain behaviours back to historical experiences of the Chinese civilisation. In other words, I tried to highlight the aspects of the historical experience of the Chinese people, which caused them to behave in a slightly different and (from a Westerners point of view) unpredictable fashion so that Westerners could understand and relate to those causes, rather than just thinking that Chinese people were fundamentally different as human beings.

Cloud Chamber: with Cloud Chamber, I selected about 70 poems written by Du Fu, Li Bai, Su Dongpo, Mei Yaochen, Li Yu, Liu Zongyuan, Bai Juyi and Wang Anshi and translated them into English. I chose poems which address themes at any human being can understand and which fit in with the contemporary concerns of the of the West. For example, Liu Zongyuan wrote about the dangers of excessive logging of forests. Du Fuwas a refugee that very much chimes with Europeans at the moment. Bai Juyi wrote about social injustices (賣炭翁) and tax evasion. There are poems about love and longing, man’s interaction with nature and what life really means so I chose poems which I felt would resonate with Westerners.

I wrote an essay linking this medieval Chinese poetry with modern Western science (quantum physics). The aim of this book is to examine the common themes of a human life and conclude that, although we have different historical experiences and therefore different traditions and ways of doing things, underneath we are all the same.

龔鵬程教授：您認(rèn)為歐美人士對(duì)中國人、中國社會(huì)的基本誤解是什么？

祈立天：在現(xiàn)代，有三個(gè)基本問題。

i)西方人把蘇聯(lián)和中國的共產(chǎn)主義混為一談。這意味著他們認(rèn)為中國的國家是邪惡的，不能信任，它將無法提供老百姓真正需要和想要的東西。他們認(rèn)為，只有通過民主和自由市場(chǎng)才能擁有一個(gè)繁榮和成功的社會(huì)，所以他們對(duì)中國的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)層非常不信任，認(rèn)為它只是想要權(quán)力和金錢。

ii）因?yàn)槲鞣接兄趁駳v史，很多人認(rèn)為，隨著中國變得越來越強(qiáng)大，它也會(huì)走同樣的道路，尋求霸權(quán)。他們并不真正了解不同的發(fā)展道路。他們不知道，幾個(gè)世紀(jì)以來，中國擁有主宰整個(gè)亞洲的軍事和行政能力，但它從未在其傳統(tǒng)邊界之外擴(kuò)張。換句話說，因?yàn)槲鞣脚哿藙e人，所以它害怕自己被奴役。

iii)西方媒體對(duì)中國極為敵視。這有很多原因，但基本原因是西方新聞界是由資本驅(qū)動(dòng)的，然后需要產(chǎn)生回報(bào)。關(guān)于中國的負(fù)面新聞能賣出報(bào)紙，因?yàn)樗鼜?qiáng)化了上述觀點(diǎn)（"迎合觀眾"），并在讀者中產(chǎn)生了一種幸福感，因?yàn)?"我們比他們強(qiáng)"。

In the modern day, there are three basic problems:

i) Westerners conflate Soviet and Chinese communism. That means that they believe that the Chinese state is evil and cannot be trusted and it will not be able to providewhat really need and want. They think that the only way to have a prosperous and successful society is through democracy and free markets, so they are very distrustful of China’s leadership and think it just wants power and money.

ii) because the West has a colonial history, many people believe that as China becomes stronger and more powerful, it will also follow the same path and seek hegemony. They do not really understand the different development paths. They do not know that for centuries, China had the military and administrative capacity to dominate the whole of Asia, but it never expanded outside it traditional borders. In other words, because the West enslaved other people, it is fearful of being enslaved itself.

iii) the Western press is extremely antagonistic towards China. There are many reasons for this, but the basic reason is that the Western press is driven by capital and then need to generate returns. Negative news on China sells newspapers because it reinforces the opinions above (“playing to the gallery”) and it generates a sense of wellbeing in the readers because “we are better than them.”

龔鵬程教授：有時(shí)候，我會(huì)想：中國人似乎總在祈求別人的理解中，這是病態(tài)，還是很好的國民性？畢竟有些民族對(duì)此是不太在乎的。例如英國人，可能基本上就認(rèn)為中國人不懂英國歷史、文學(xué)、宗教和生活規(guī)矩是很正常的，不因此而覺得遺憾、受傷，或因此而鄙視中國人。您覺得呢？

祈立天：我認(rèn)為這不是病態(tài)，原因有二：

一、因?yàn)橹袊钡浇€很弱小和不發(fā)達(dá)（甚至在1977年，當(dāng)華國鋒從中國派出一個(gè)考察團(tuán)到歐洲時(shí)，他們對(duì)自己的發(fā)現(xiàn)感到非常震驚和驚奇），中國在過去四十年的整個(gè)故事是一個(gè)追趕的過程。

這意味著，中國人民"作為一個(gè)整體 "學(xué)習(xí)西方是必要的，"中國人 "學(xué)習(xí)英語也是可取的，因?yàn)檫@將導(dǎo)致更好的生活和更多的機(jī)會(huì)。

在西方?jīng)]有類似的過程，因此西方人對(duì)中國仍然相當(dāng)無知。英國仍然對(duì)自己的傳統(tǒng)相當(dāng)滿意，因?yàn)槲覀冋龔囊粋€(gè)霸權(quán)點(diǎn)上衰落，而且在最近的歷史上沒有遇到過如此困難的事情，所以它沒有動(dòng)機(jī)去了解其他社會(huì)，它仍然對(duì)自己的傳統(tǒng)感到相當(dāng)安全——部分原因是它沒有意識(shí)到其挑戰(zhàn)的規(guī)模。

我認(rèn)為，中國人對(duì)自己的文明和文化感到自豪，并希望其他人也能分享它，承認(rèn)它的價(jià)值，這是非常自然的。

二、如果西方人更了解中國，就不太可能出現(xiàn)可能導(dǎo)致戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)的錯(cuò)誤。

一個(gè)明顯的例子是臺(tái)灣。很少有西方人了解臺(tái)灣的歷史，他們只是認(rèn)為這是一個(gè)熟悉的故事，即中國試圖與該島發(fā)生沖突。但事實(shí)是如果他們不了解背景，就很容易犯嚴(yán)重的錯(cuò)誤。

我認(rèn)為由于這兩個(gè)原因，中國渴望從西方獲得更好的理解是合理且能夠理解的。事實(shí)上，這也是我每天都在努力幫助的事情。

I don’t think it is pathological at all, for two reasons:

i) Because China was extremely weak and under-developed until very recently (evenin 1977, when 華國鋒 sent an inspection group from China to Europe, they were very shocked and amazed by what they found) the whole story of China in the last forty years has been one of catch-up. That means that it was both necessary for the Chinese people ‘a(chǎn)s-a-whole’ to study the West and also desirable for ‘Chinese-individuals’ to study English because it would lead to a better life and more opportunities. There has been no similar process in the West and therefore Westerners remain quite ignorant about China. Britain is still quite comfortable with its own traditions because we are declining from a point of hegemony and has not had to confront anything so difficult in its recent history, so it does not have a motivation to learn about other societies and it still feels quite secure about its own traditions – partly because it does not realise the scale of its challenges. I think it is very natural for Chinese people to be proud of their own civilisation and culture and want other people to share in it and recognise its value.

ii) if Westerners understand China better, there is less likely to be a mistake that could lead to a war. An obvious example is Taiwan. Very few Westerners understand the history of Taiwan and they just think that it is a familiar story of a dictatorship in China trying to invade the island, If they do jot understand the background, it is easy to make a serious mistake. I think for these two reasons, it is reasonable and understandable that China yearns for better understanding from the West. In fact, that is something that I try to help with every day.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺(tái)北，臺(tái)灣師范大學(xué)博士，當(dāng)代著名學(xué)者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學(xué)、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規(guī)劃城市建設(shè)、主題園區(qū)等多處。講學(xué)于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺(tái)北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展?，F(xiàn)為中國孔子博物館名譽(yù)館長、美國龔鵬程基金會(huì)主席。