龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者第八十八期：在后現(xiàn)代情境中，被技術(shù)統(tǒng)治的人類社會(huì)，只有強(qiáng)化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰(shuí)的理論，而是每個(gè)人都應(yīng)實(shí)踐的活動(dòng)。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學(xué)研究中心”。我們會(huì)陸續(xù)推出“龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者”系列文章，請(qǐng)他對(duì)話一些學(xué)界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學(xué)，會(huì)涉及多種學(xué)科。以期深山長(zhǎng)谷之水，四面而出。

麗娜·弗魯澤蒂教授（Professor Lina Fruzzetti）

美國(guó)布朗大學(xué)人類學(xué)系人類學(xué)教授、美國(guó)文化人類學(xué)家和紀(jì)錄片制片人

龔鵬程教授：您好。在一次演講中，您提到您是來自厄立特里亞的難民，請(qǐng)問您的個(gè)人經(jīng)歷是如何塑造您作為研究學(xué)者的未來的呢？

麗娜·弗魯澤蒂教授：龔教授，您好。我在五歲時(shí)從厄立特里亞遷移到蘇丹，確實(shí)影響了我體驗(yàn)新環(huán)境：失去父親對(duì)我來說意味著什么。我三歲時(shí)失去了意大利人父親。作為居住在厄立特里亞的混血兒（意大利/厄立特里亞），這可能會(huì)帶來一些問題，特別是因?yàn)橐獯罄趁裾咻數(shù)魬?zhàn)爭(zhēng)后。

作為難民，生活在一個(gè)新的國(guó)家，擁有多元化的人民和宗教信仰，盡管我們面臨著挑戰(zhàn)，但我們開始教育自己尋找適應(yīng)新社會(huì)的方法。

我們被安置在一所由意大利修女開辦的英國(guó)寄宿學(xué)校，不知道下一次見到母親是什么時(shí)候，我們不得不照顧自己。我的兄弟太小了，不能和康博尼學(xué)校的大男孩一起被安置在這里，他和其他像他一樣的人留在了學(xué)校里女生部。我可以見到我的兄弟并和他聊天，向他保證一切都會(huì)好起來的，媽媽會(huì)來看我們的。

在我們這種情況下體驗(yàn)生活是很艱難的，因?yàn)樘贻p了，以至于我們還不能在一個(gè)陌生的國(guó)家離我們的家人很遠(yuǎn)。

我們所有忍受的疏離感、失落感、在我們本應(yīng)該有更牢固的家庭紐帶的時(shí)候的流離失所，所有這些各種各樣的生活經(jīng)歷都迫使我們思考我們是誰(shuí)，是什么塑造了我們。 正是從那時(shí)起，我開始意識(shí)到我如何看待自己的身份是由流離失所和種族差異概念所塑造的。

我們離開厄立特里亞，因?yàn)槲覀兊幕煅獌荷矸?，?dān)心（尤其是意大利人）會(huì)給我們帶來麻煩，迫使我母親做出離開厄立特里亞的決定。

我明白了流離失所、疏離、陌生的生活條件以及流散生活的意義。 這些早期的回憶肯定會(huì)影響我如何去選擇學(xué)習(xí)內(nèi)容，以及我自己的生活如何和社區(qū)分享。

My displacement from Eritrea to Sudan at an early age of five years did impact how I would come to experience new surroundings and what it meant to be fatherless. I was three years old when I lost my father, who was Italian. Being biracial (Italian /Eritrean) person living in Eritrea might have posed problems especially since the Italian colonizers had lost the war. As refugees, living in a new country, with diverse people and religious affiliation, we began to educate ourselves finding ways to fit in the new society despite the challenges facing us. Placed in an English boarding school run by Italian nuns, not knowing when would be the next time we would meet our mother, we had to care for ourselves. My brother was too young to be placed with the older boys in the Comboni school, he along others like him stayed behind with the girl’s part of the school. I could meet my brother and chat with him, reassuring him that things will be OK and that mother would come to see us. Experiencing life in our condition was hard, too young to be in a strange country and away from family.

The alienation we endured, the sense of loss, the displacement at a time when we should have had a stronger familial bonding, all of these assorted life experiences forced us to consider who we are and what shaped us. It was from that early time that I became cognizant of how I saw my own identity one forged by displacement and race, or notions of difference. We left Eritrea fearing that our bi-racial make-up, (especially the Italian) would pose problems for us, forced my mother to make the decision to leave Eritrea. I understood the meaning of displacement, alienation, unfamiliar living conditions, life in the diaspora. These earlier recollections will surely impact on how I choose what to study, and how my own life shares with the communities I come to understand.

龔鵬程教授：您詳細(xì)研究和分析蘇丹婦女曾在工作方面有著非常出色的表現(xiàn)。 然而，農(nóng)業(yè)現(xiàn)代化，使蘇丹農(nóng)村地區(qū)的婦女處于岌岌可危的社會(huì)境地。是什么造成了這樣的情況呢？

麗娜·弗魯澤蒂教授：我在蘇丹東部進(jìn)行的研究，納入了不同村莊的許多農(nóng)村農(nóng)戶。這些社區(qū)實(shí)行雨養(yǎng)農(nóng)業(yè)，每戶可耕種約 7 英畝土地。衡量每個(gè)家庭的年生產(chǎn)力就足以維持生計(jì)，額外的谷物要么被換成其他商品，要么被出售。該研究強(qiáng)調(diào)了家庭勞動(dòng)的重要性，每個(gè)成員根據(jù)年齡貢獻(xiàn)工作。所發(fā)生的是女性的核心工作是如何經(jīng)營(yíng)一個(gè)自給自足的農(nóng)場(chǎng)，實(shí)際上會(huì)使用秒表并測(cè)量女性在農(nóng)場(chǎng)工作的時(shí)間（有時(shí)步行四次或更多的距離到達(dá)現(xiàn)場(chǎng)）約占總工作量的75%。在農(nóng)場(chǎng)工作后，婦女們回到家中繼續(xù)日?，嵤?，或在菜地上投入時(shí)間。他們的工作要等到每個(gè)家庭成員都吃飽、照顧好、房子打掃干凈之后才結(jié)束。他們沒有太多空閑時(shí)間，總是忙于一項(xiàng)或另一項(xiàng)任務(wù)。以家庭為基礎(chǔ)的勞動(dòng)力經(jīng)營(yíng)和組織了自給農(nóng)業(yè)的存在方式。沒有女性的巨大貢獻(xiàn)，男性無法獨(dú)自經(jīng)營(yíng)農(nóng)場(chǎng)。

理解農(nóng)村家庭如何運(yùn)作，本應(yīng)是任何農(nóng)村農(nóng)業(yè)現(xiàn)代化優(yōu)先考慮的事情?，F(xiàn)代化模式必然會(huì)改變農(nóng)場(chǎng)的運(yùn)作方式，而基于性別的動(dòng)態(tài)，將導(dǎo)致家庭的勞動(dòng)失衡。婦女必須成為任何新的農(nóng)場(chǎng)現(xiàn)代化模式的核心。忽視婦女的參與或優(yōu)先考慮男性農(nóng)民將導(dǎo)致災(zāi)難性的結(jié)果。如果基于性別的模式在西方行之有效，那么在其他社會(huì)環(huán)境中可能就不是這樣了。

The research that I conducted in Eastern Sudan incorporated many rural farming households in different villages. These communities practiced rainfed agriculture with about seven acers of land to work on per household. Measuring the annual productivity per family was sufficient to live on and additional grain was either bartered for other commodities or sold. The study highlighted was the importance of family labor with each member contributing work in accordance to age. What transpired was how central women’s work was to running a subsistent farm, in fact using a stop watch and measuring the amount of time a woman spends working on the farm only (at times walking a distance of four or more to the site) comes to about 75% of the total work load. After the work on their farms, the women return to their household to continue their daily chores, or invest time on their vegetable plots. Their work dose not end until every member of the family is fed and attended to, and the house cleaned. They do not get much free time, always keeping busy with one task or another. Family based labor runs and organizes how subsistent farming exists and without the huge women’s contribution men alone cannot manage running the farm.

Understanding how a rural family functions should have been the priority of any attempt to modernize rural farming. Modernization model would necessarily introduce changes to the workings of the farms, and the gender-based dynamics would create an imbalance to what is known as family-based labor. Women have to be central to any newer models for how farms would modernize. Ignoring women’s participation or prioritizing male farmers would results in disastrous results. If a gender-based model works in the West, it might not be the case in other societal settings.

龔鵬程教授：您還研究了孟加拉農(nóng)村婦女的社會(huì)地位。孟加拉和蘇丹之間的主要區(qū)別/相似之處有哪些呢？

麗娜·弗魯澤蒂教授：孟加拉農(nóng)村或蘇丹農(nóng)村婦女之間的差異取決于這兩個(gè)地方的文化期望。說到農(nóng)村，每個(gè)社會(huì)都對(duì)女性設(shè)定了期望，女性的文化密碼，在她們的社交過程中就被傳播了。兩個(gè)社會(huì)中的婦女，都履行自己的職責(zé)并維護(hù)日常生活的規(guī)范。蘇丹或孟加拉婦女遵守她們?cè)谒饺祟I(lǐng)域和公共領(lǐng)域應(yīng)做的事情。已婚婦女的行為舉止受到仔細(xì)的審查和監(jiān)督。設(shè)定了他們遵守的規(guī)范，并且他們知道萬一他們的行為動(dòng)搖的后果。

盡管存在宗教差異，但這兩個(gè)社會(huì)在行為準(zhǔn)則和文化期望方面有很多共同點(diǎn)。但她們之間的一個(gè)主要區(qū)別是，蘇丹婦女確實(shí)比孟加拉婦女有著更大的權(quán)力。鑒于他們基于伊斯蘭的契約婚姻，如果他們?cè)诨橐黾彝ブ性馐芘按?，他們可以離婚，這對(duì)于孟加拉印度教農(nóng)村已婚婦女來說并不容易。

蘇丹婦女確實(shí)對(duì)她們的發(fā)言權(quán)以及她們?nèi)绾喂芾砣粘Ｉ顥l件有某種形式的控制。男人要再娶一個(gè)妻子，必須征得第一任妻子的同意，而她的想法是至關(guān)重要的。她可以拒絕提供勞動(dòng)力來經(jīng)營(yíng)他們的農(nóng)場(chǎng)和其他創(chuàng)收活動(dòng)，或者她可以回到她父親的家里。孟加拉農(nóng)村的已婚婦女沒有這些機(jī)會(huì)。

The differences between women in rural Bengal or rural Sudan rests on what are the cultural expectations in both places. Speaking about rural conditions, each society has set expectations of their women, the culture code for females is transmitted early on during their socializing process. Women in both societies carry about their duties and uphold the norm for their everyday life. Sudanese or Bengali women abide by what they are meant to perform in the private and within the public domain. Married women are scrutinized and monitored in how they comport themselves. A norm is set to which they abide and they are aware of the consequences in case they do falter in their behavior. Despite the religious differences the two societies have a lot in common regarding their code of conduct and cultural expectations. But one major difference between them is that Sudanese women do exert more power than Bengali women. Given their Islamic based contractual marriage, they are allowed to divorce in case they experience abuse in their marital household, the case is not easy for rural Bengali Hindu married women. Sudanese women do have some form of control over their say and how they manage their daily living conditions. For a man to bring into the household compound one more wife, he would have to secure the permission of his first wife, and her voice is crucial. She could refuse to offer her labor to run their farm, and other income generating activities, or she could return to her father’s household. These opportunities are not available to a rural Bengali married woman.

龔鵬程教授：在你的紀(jì)錄片《在我母親的房子里》（in my mother’s house）中，你深入研究了你的家庭歷史。這部電影是關(guān)于什么的？為什么選擇導(dǎo)演這樣一部個(gè)人電影呢？

麗娜·弗魯澤蒂教授：這部紀(jì)錄片《在我母親的房子里》（in my mother’s house）講述了一名厄立特里亞婦女在60年內(nèi)跨越四大洲，跨越三個(gè)殖民統(tǒng)治的故事。主題涵蓋了露西亞的生活、她的青年時(shí)代、意大利殖民統(tǒng)治和埃塞俄比亞吞并厄立特里亞的時(shí)期、向蘇丹的移民，以及她最終返回自由解放的厄立特里亞的家園。

她的生活經(jīng)歷、成就和分散的家庭是這部電影的核心。這部紀(jì)錄片講述了露西亞在阿斯馬拉出生的過程，她是一名農(nóng)民的女兒，當(dāng)她遇到了意大利殖民官員西爾維奧，她的未來丈夫時(shí)，她的生活發(fā)生了變化。她在18歲時(shí)喪偶，有一個(gè)兒子和一個(gè)女兒，兩個(gè)孩子都不到4歲。露西亞經(jīng)歷了種種困難，她戰(zhàn)勝了自己面臨的挑戰(zhàn)，她作為一名文盲，帶著兩個(gè)孩子，剛剛失去了她的父親。

通過對(duì)露西亞及其親友的采訪，這部電影追溯了她在厄立特里亞和蘇丹的過去，目的是在兩國(guó)之外擴(kuò)大和聯(lián)系她的活動(dòng)和影響力的線索。 在厄立特里亞內(nèi)戰(zhàn)最激烈的時(shí)候，她已經(jīng)建立了一家成功的企業(yè)，這使她能夠談判將她的侄子和侄女從蘇丹難民營(yíng)中釋放出來，他們?cè)谔与x厄立特里亞后定居在那里。 她對(duì)自己的血親有強(qiáng)烈的責(zé)任感，她希望看到他們?cè)谠敢饨蛹{厄立特里亞難民的眾多歐洲國(guó)家之一得到妥善的安置。

這部電影很難導(dǎo)演，尤其是我們拍攝和采訪意大利家庭的部分，我父親的家人。 第一次見到他的兩個(gè)兩表兄弟，我父親的兄弟的三個(gè)孩子或我父親的姐姐的兩個(gè)表兄弟。 關(guān)于我父親在厄立特里亞的第二個(gè)家庭留下了他的意大利妻子和女兒的討論，是一個(gè)難以追究的話題，用正確的詞來形容很痛苦的，對(duì)我來說。 我需要很多年才能完全調(diào)整過來。這部電影是很個(gè)人的，電影的問題和敘述很困難，但故事解決了所謂的困難。

The documentary film, In My Mother’s House about the story of an Eritrean woman, spanning four continents, crossing three colonial rules, within six decades. The theme covers the life of Lucia, her youth, the time during Italian colonial rule and the annexation of Eritrea by Ethiopia, the migration to Sudan, and finally her return home to a free liberated Eritrea. Her life experiences, accomplishments, and her scattered family, is central to the film.

The documentary navigates the journey Lucia undertook, born in Asmara, a farmer’s daughter, whose life changes when she meets Silvio an Italian colonial officer, her husband to be. The tragedy of her life is narrated by her, widowed at 18 years, with a son and daughter, both children under four years old. Lucia experienced difficulties, she combated the challenges facing her, an illiterate woman with two children, having just lost their father.

Through interviews with Lucia and with her relatives and friends, the film traces the path she pursued in both Eritrea and Sudan the aim is to broaden and interconnect the threads of her activities and influence, beyond the two countries. At the height of the Eritrean civil war, she had already established a successful business, that enabled her to negotiate the release of her nephews and nieces from the Sudanese refugee camps where they were settled after their escape from Eritrea. She felt a strong sense of responsibility towards her blood kin and her desire was to see that they were properly resettled in one of the many European countries willing to take in Eritrean refugees.

It was difficult to direct the film, especially the parts where we were filming and interviewing the Italian side of the family, my father’s family. Meeting for the first time the two sets of cousins, my father’s brothers’ three children or my father’s sister’s two cousins. The discussion about my father’s second family in Eritrea having left behind his Italian wife and daughter was a difficult subject to pursue, in fact painful to use the correct word. It would take many years for me to fully adjust myself to the situation. The film was personal, the issues and narratives of the film were difficult, but the story resolved the difficulties.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺(tái)北，臺(tái)灣師范大學(xué)博士，當(dāng)代著名學(xué)者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學(xué)、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規(guī)劃城市建設(shè)、主題園區(qū)等多處。講學(xué)于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺(tái)北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展?，F(xiàn)為中國(guó)孔子博物館名譽(yù)館長(zhǎng)、美國(guó)龔鵬程基金會(huì)主席。