龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者第七十七期：在后現(xiàn)代情境中，被技術(shù)統(tǒng)治的人類社會(huì)，只有強(qiáng)化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰(shuí)的理論，而是每個(gè)人都應(yīng)實(shí)踐的活動(dòng)。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學(xué)研究中心”。我們會(huì)陸續(xù)推出“龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者”系列文章，請(qǐng)他對(duì)話一些學(xué)界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學(xué)，會(huì)涉及多種學(xué)科。以期深山長(zhǎng)谷之水，四面而出。

卡特里奧娜·賽斯教授（Professor Catriona Seth）

牛津大學(xué)（萬(wàn)靈學(xué)院），18世紀(jì)法國(guó)文學(xué)教授

龔鵬程教授：您好。醫(yī)學(xué)人文學(xué)科是您研究領(lǐng)域的一部分。例如，您研究了 18 世紀(jì)社會(huì)對(duì)天花接種的反應(yīng)。那么，在當(dāng)前 COVID-19 大流行的全球背景下，從醫(yī)學(xué)人文的角度來(lái)看，有哪些有趣的問題值得去思考？

卡特里奧娜·賽斯教授：龔教授，您好。COVID-19 大流行表明，18 世紀(jì)關(guān)于天花的很多問題在今天仍然是有效的。面對(duì)過去的教訓(xùn)，我們需要表現(xiàn)出更多的謙卑。很難知道在特定情況下有多少人感染了天花，因?yàn)橛行┎±赡軟]有癥狀，有些人會(huì)從獲得性免疫中受益。死亡率很難計(jì)算，因?yàn)槿丝赡軙?huì)死于疾病或潛在的一些健康狀況，同時(shí)患病而不是因?yàn)榧膊”旧怼魅静∈侨庋劭床灰姷?，因此很難隔離感染了這種疾病但仍處于潛伏期的人。

天花的情況對(duì)COVID-19 仍然適用。接種疫苗（給人們帶來(lái)實(shí)際疾?。┖鸵呙缃臃N（給人們接種牛痘，一種不太嚴(yán)重的疾病，但可以讓您產(chǎn)生用來(lái)保護(hù)你免受天花侵害的抗體）早期支持者的困境之一是抵抗力由某些社會(huì)成員提供。他們是現(xiàn)代 Antivax 運(yùn)動(dòng)的先驅(qū)。他們出于各種原因反對(duì)，有些與任何醫(yī)療程序所涉及的風(fēng)險(xiǎn)有關(guān)，有些與神學(xué)或道德問題有關(guān)。

無(wú)論免疫接種是否被認(rèn)為是強(qiáng)制性的，也存在社會(huì)和文化不平等。除了死亡人數(shù)或明顯的身體反應(yīng)后果（例如失明、疤痕等）外，天花通常會(huì)在感染者或經(jīng)歷過流行病的人的腦海中留下創(chuàng)傷痕跡。

所有這些因素都讓我們從長(zhǎng)遠(yuǎn)的角度看待現(xiàn)代問題，同時(shí)也考慮非醫(yī)療行為對(duì)公共和私人健康問題的影響方式。

The COVID-19 pandemic demonstrated that many of the questions posed in the 18th-century about smallpox are still valid nowadays. We need to show more humility faced with the lessons of the past. It is hard to know how many people caught smallpox in a particular context as some cases may have been asymptomatic and some people will have benefitted from acquired immunity. Mortality rates are difficult to calculate since you might die from the disease or from an underlying health condition whilst suffering from the illness rather than from the illness itself. Contagion is invisible to the naked eye so it is hard to isolate someone who has caught the disease but still has it in its incubation period. What was true for smallpox is still true for COVID-19. One of the difficulties for early proponents of inoculation (where you gave people the actual illness) and then of vaccination (where people were given the cowpox, a less serious illness but which allowed you to develop antibodies protecting you against the smallpox) was the resistance offered by certain members of society. They were the precursors of the modern Antivax movement. They objected for various reasons, some relating to the risk involved in any medical procedure, some linked to theological or moral concerns. There were also social and cultural inequalities which came into play whether or not immunisation was presented as compulsory. Apart from the fatalities or the obvious physical consequences (e.g. blindness, scars etc.) smallpox often left traumatic traces in the minds of people who caught it or who lived through an epidemic. All these elements invite us to take the long view of modern questions but also to consider ways in which non-medical behaviour impacts on matters of public and private health.

龔鵬程教授：您編寫了《歐洲的想法：?jiǎn)⒚梢暯恰罚═he idea of Europe: Enlightment Perspectives）一書，其中匯集了盧梭、康德、伏爾泰等啟蒙思想家的文本。隨著當(dāng)前烏克蘭和俄羅斯之間的戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)，許多人質(zhì)疑歐洲的地理和文化界限是什么。例如，烏克蘭和俄羅斯是否屬于歐洲？啟蒙運(yùn)動(dòng)時(shí)期的人們對(duì)這個(gè)問題有什么看法？

卡特里奧娜·賽斯教授：在 18 世紀(jì)，就像現(xiàn)在一樣，雖然歐洲的一些邊界很容易確定——例如，在大陸的西部，大陸的盡頭——但在東部卻很難確定。烏克蘭當(dāng)然是并且一直是歐洲的一部分。在我的有生之年，我們通俗地稱為俄羅斯的形式發(fā)生了變化。

蘇聯(lián)（蘇維埃社會(huì)主義共和國(guó)聯(lián)盟）從歐洲一直延伸到亞洲。同一個(gè)跨大陸地理區(qū)域現(xiàn)在包括幾個(gè)獨(dú)立的國(guó)家。

十八世紀(jì)俄羅斯最偉大的統(tǒng)治者是一位女性，凱瑟琳女皇（Catherine the Great）（1729-1796），她有開明暴君的特征。她盡其所能在她的國(guó)家發(fā)展歐洲文化，建立城市并引進(jìn)雕塑家法爾科內(nèi)特（Falconet）或作家狄德羅（Diderot）等藝術(shù)家，他們都應(yīng)她的邀請(qǐng)前往圣彼得堡。

盡管俄羅斯大部分地區(qū)在她統(tǒng)治期間幾乎沒有發(fā)生什么變化，但凱瑟琳致力于建立教育機(jī)構(gòu)，改革法律實(shí)踐，與伏爾泰（Voltaire）等名人交流思想，同時(shí)也積極努力展示她堅(jiān)持西方進(jìn)步的方式。

舉一個(gè)與前一個(gè)問題密切相關(guān)的例子，她采取的行動(dòng)之一是為了表明她對(duì)啟蒙運(yùn)動(dòng)理想的承諾，她廣為傳播，例如通過與伏爾泰的通信，她決定邀請(qǐng)一位英國(guó)醫(yī)生Thomas Dimsdale （Thomas Dimsdale）到圣彼得堡為她和她的兒子王儲(chǔ)（ Crown Prince or Tsarevitch）接種天花疫苗。

對(duì)于18 世紀(jì)的大多數(shù)思想家來(lái)說(shuō)，俄羅斯仍然是神秘的，而女皇既令人畏懼又令人欽佩。

For the 18th century, like nowadays, whilst some of the boundaries of Europe are easy to determine—to the West of the continent, for instance, where the land masses end—it is harder to do so to the East. Ukraine is of course and always has been a part of Europe. Within my lifetime the shape of what we refer to colloquially as Russia has changed. The USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) stretched all the way over from Europe to Asia. The same transcontinental geographical area now includes several independent States. The greatest ruler of Russia in the eighteenth century was a woman, Empress Catherine the Great (1729-1796) who was characteristic of the Enlightened despots. She did all she could to develop European culture in her State, founding cities and bringing over artists like the sculptor Falconet or the writer Diderot, who both made the trip to Saint-Petersburg at her invitation. Though much of Russia saw few changes during her reign, Catherine was engaged in setting up educational establishments, reforming legal practices, exchanging ideas with luminaries like Voltaire, but also endeavouring actively to show the way in which she adhered to Western progress. To give an instance which ties in neatly with the previous question, one of the actions she took to demonstrate her commitment to the ideals of the Enlightenment, which she broadcast far and wide, for instance through her correspondence with Voltaire, was her decision to invite a British doctor, Thomas Dimsdale, to Saint Petersburg in order for him to inoculate her and her son, the Crown Prince (or Tsarevitch) against the smallpox. For most thinkers in the 18th-century Russia remained mysterious and the empress was at once feared and admired.

龔鵬程教授：據(jù)說(shuō)拿破侖（Napoleon）認(rèn)為在歐洲除了英國(guó)人和俄羅斯人具有強(qiáng)大的勢(shì)力外，令他欽佩甚至畏懼的就要數(shù)斯塔爾夫人（Germaine de Sta?l）了。拿破侖害怕Germaine de Sta?l，如果是，為什么？Germaine de Sta?l 留給后人的遺產(chǎn)是什么？

卡特里奧娜·賽斯教授：公平地說(shuō)，拿破侖害怕 Germaine de Sta?l。雖然他的權(quán)力建立在軍事上的成功之上——他之所以聲名鵲起，首先要?dú)w功于他作為一名成功將軍的記錄——但她卻用言語(yǔ)來(lái)戰(zhàn)斗。

盡管他盡其所能壓制反對(duì)派的威脅，流放或監(jiān)禁對(duì)手并禁止任何他認(rèn)為具有煽動(dòng)性的文本——包括她的論文De l'Allemagne（論德國(guó)）——但她尋求對(duì)話和理解。

皇帝認(rèn)為外國(guó)文化是危險(xiǎn)的和充滿敵意的（這對(duì)他對(duì)法國(guó)的看法構(gòu)成威脅），她認(rèn)為這是一條更新、交流和知識(shí)豐富的途徑。對(duì)于Germaine de Sta?l 來(lái)說(shuō)，差異是一種了解他人及其習(xí)俗的方式，也是了解自己、挑戰(zhàn)自己的偏見和尋求全面改進(jìn)的一種方式。

她的概念很慷慨，但她從父母那里繼承的（可觀的）財(cái)富也很慷慨。在將理性視為首要原則的氛圍中，她相信情感在政治中發(fā)揮著作用，歷史、文學(xué)和藝術(shù)可以證明是分裂國(guó)家之間團(tuán)結(jié)的基礎(chǔ)——意大利和德國(guó)，在她的一生中，各式各樣的公國(guó)，而不是我們現(xiàn)在所知道的國(guó)家。在政治上，她不是極端主義者。恰恰相反。適度是她的原則之一，這轉(zhuǎn)化為她對(duì)政府應(yīng)該如何運(yùn)作以及我們應(yīng)該在社會(huì)契約中能夠?qū)⒐怖嬷糜谌魏蝹€(gè)人利益之上的方式的愿景。她的遺產(chǎn)是開放和寬容的。她是一位偉大的思想家，一位偉大的小說(shuō)家和散文家，值得比她迄今為止更多的關(guān)注！

It is fair to say that Napoleon feared Germaine de Sta?l. Whilst his power was based on military successes—he rose to prominence first and foremost thanks to his record as a successful general—, she fought with words. Whilst he did everything he could to suppress the threat of opposition, exiling or imprisoning adversaries and banning any texts he considered to be seditious—including her treatiseDe l’Allemagne (On Germany)—she sought dialogue and understanding. Where the emperor felt foreign culture to be dangerous and inimical (it was a threat to his vision of France), she believed it was a route to renewal, exchange and intellectual enrichment. For Germaine de Sta?l, differences are to be welcomed as a means of learning about other people and their customs, but also about oneself, of challenging one’s own prejudice and of seeking general improvement. She was generous in her ideas but also with the (considerable) fortune she had inherited from her parents. In a climate which saw Reason defended as an overarching principle, she believed that emotions had a part to play in politics, that history, literature and the arts could prove a basis for unity among fragmented States—Italy and Germany, during her lifetime, were motley assortments of duchies, principalities etc., not the nations we know nowadays. She was not an extremist in political terms. Quite the opposite. Moderation was one of her principles and this translated into her vision of how government should work and the manner in which we should, within the social contract, be capable of putting the common good above any idea of individual gain. Hers is a legacy of openness and tolerance. She is a great thinker and a great novelist and essayist who deserves more attention than she has got so far!

龔鵬程教授：瑪麗·安托瓦內(nèi)特（Marie Antoinette）是另一位在法國(guó)歷史上發(fā)揮重要作用的女性。我們應(yīng)該如何想象她在宮廷上的生活？她和路易十六的婚姻幸福嗎？

卡特里奧娜·賽斯教授：瑪麗·安托瓦內(nèi)特（Marie Antoinette）年僅14歲，她被送出出生地奧地利，嫁給了一個(gè)她素未謀面的男人：法國(guó)王位的繼承人。

這對(duì)她來(lái)說(shuō)一定是很痛苦的。她將發(fā)現(xiàn)凡爾賽宮的宮廷生活在許多方面都比維也納要正式得多。她有快樂和自發(fā)的時(shí)刻，但也有許多其他時(shí)刻，她強(qiáng)烈地感到缺乏自由。她希望能夠根據(jù)自己的喜好選擇朋友。她應(yīng)該根據(jù)他們?cè)谏鐣?huì)中的地位來(lái)選擇他們。

因?yàn)樗龥]有，她疏遠(yuǎn)了一些貴族家庭。她承受著巨大的壓力來(lái)產(chǎn)生王位繼承人——這被認(rèn)為是女王在法國(guó)的唯一職能——但她的婚姻七年多都沒有完成。

在此期間，她嫁給了一個(gè)對(duì)她幾乎不感興趣的人，她全身心投入到狂熱的社交生活中，對(duì)時(shí)尚的衣服、發(fā)型和珠寶產(chǎn)生了極大的興趣。她還推動(dòng)了長(zhǎng)期以來(lái)被低估的法國(guó)音樂生活的深度革新。

瑪麗安托瓦內(nèi)特最重要的角色是母親。她寵愛自己生下的四個(gè)孩子。在她生命的后期，隨著動(dòng)蕩的加劇，女王成為許多殘酷漫畫、下流冊(cè)子和誹謗嘲諷的對(duì)象。雖然他們最初并沒有太多共同點(diǎn)，但路易十六和瑪麗·安托瓦內(nèi)特逐漸相互欣賞，并共同努力，試圖改變法國(guó)在大革命期間的命運(yùn)，但他們被拘留在巴黎，并于 1793 年被處決。

Marie Antoinette was only 14 years old when she was sent away from Austria, where she was born, to marry a man she had never met: the heir to the French throne. It must have been traumatic for her. She was to discover that court life in Versailles was in many ways much more formal than it was in Vienna. She had moments of happiness and spontaneity but also many others where she felt the lack of freedom keenly. She wanted to be able to choose her friends on the basis of inclination. She was supposed to select them according to their place in society. Because she did not, she alienated some noble families. She was put under a lot of pressure to produce an heir to the throne—this was seen as the queen’s only function in France—but her marriage was not consummated for over seven years. During this time, married to someone who showed little or no interest in her, she threw herself into a frenetic social life, developed considerable interest in fashionable clothes, hairstyles and jewellery. She also promoted an in-depth renewal of musical life in France which has long been underestimated. Marie Antoinette’s most important role was as a mother. She doted on the four children to whom she gave birth. During the latter part of her life, as unrest grew, the queen was the object of many cruel caricatures, scurrilous pamphlets and slanderous taunts. Whilst they initially did not have much in common, Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette grew to appreciate each other and to work together to try—unsuccessfully—to change France’s destiny during the Revolution when they were detained in Paris where they would both be executed in 1793.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺(tái)北，臺(tái)灣師范大學(xué)博士，當(dāng)代著名學(xué)者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學(xué)、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規(guī)劃城市建設(shè)、主題園區(qū)等多處。講學(xué)于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺(tái)北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展。現(xiàn)為中國(guó)孔子博物館名譽(yù)館長(zhǎng)、美國(guó)龔鵬程基金會(huì)主席。