龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者第六十六期：在后現(xiàn)代情境中，被技術(shù)統(tǒng)治的人類社會(huì)，只有強(qiáng)化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰(shuí)的理論，而是每個(gè)人都應(yīng)實(shí)踐的活動(dòng)。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過(guò)“世界漢學(xué)研究中心”。我們會(huì)陸續(xù)推出“龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者”系列文章，請(qǐng)他對(duì)話一些學(xué)界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學(xué)，會(huì)涉及多種學(xué)科。以期深山長(zhǎng)谷之水，四面而出。

埃雷茲·馬內(nèi)拉教授（Professor Erez Manela）

哈佛大學(xué)歷史學(xué)教授。

龔鵬程教授：您好，我對(duì)您的全球史研究非常感興趣。但無(wú)論是研究一次大戰(zhàn)后的威爾遜，還是二次大戰(zhàn)后的美國(guó)與全球南方。您似乎都是以美國(guó)為焦點(diǎn)的，或者也可說(shuō)是“美國(guó)在世界上的歷史”。這樣，會(huì)不會(huì)引起一些疑惑？

埃雷茲·馬內(nèi)拉：龔教授，您好。是的，我對(duì)20世紀(jì)國(guó)際歷史的研究經(jīng)常以美國(guó)在世界上的作用為中心。這反映了我自己對(duì)美國(guó)在國(guó)際事務(wù)中所扮演的角色的興趣，以及美國(guó)在20世紀(jì)國(guó)際歷史中無(wú)與倫比的重要性。這也反映了美國(guó)政府檔案的相對(duì)開(kāi)放性（例如，白宮或國(guó)務(wù)院的文件），這種開(kāi)放性有利于對(duì)其外交政策和全球角色進(jìn)行歷史研究。

盡管如此，我預(yù)計(jì)在未來(lái)幾年，許多國(guó)際歷史研究的重點(diǎn)很可能會(huì)從美國(guó)轉(zhuǎn)移。這將是近幾十年來(lái)美國(guó)實(shí)力和影響力相對(duì)下降的一個(gè)自然和可能的結(jié)果。也許更令人擔(dān)憂的是，它還可能源于美國(guó)政府文件訪問(wèn)量的減少。過(guò)去以紙質(zhì)形式保存的許多文件，在過(guò)去25年左右的時(shí)間里，已經(jīng)遷移到了數(shù)字格式。這些新的格式很可能使文件的保存和未來(lái)歷史學(xué)家的訪問(wèn)變得更加復(fù)雜。

Yes, my research on the international history of the 20th century has often centred the role of the United States in the world. This reflects my own interest in the part the US has played in international affairs as well as the outsize importance of the United States in 20th century international history. It also reflects the relative openness of US government archives (for example, the papers of the White House or the State Department), an openness which facilitates historical research into its foreign policies and global role.

That said, I expect that the emphasis of much international history research may well shift away from the United States in future years. This would be a natural and likely result of the relative decline of US power and influence in recent decades. It may also stem, perhaps more worryingly, from the decline of access to US government documents. So many documents that in the past were preserved in paper form have, in the last 25 years or so, migrated to digital formats. These new formats may well make document preservation and access for future historians more complicated.

龔鵬程教授：美國(guó)在近兩百年間的地位，當(dāng)然全球無(wú)與倫比，但全球化或美國(guó)化的爭(zhēng)論一直很激烈，您的看法是什么？

埃雷茲·馬內(nèi)拉：我同意，在20世紀(jì)的大部分時(shí)間里，美國(guó)文化的影響在世界許多地方都很重要。然而，我認(rèn)為最好從全球化的角度來(lái)思考這個(gè)時(shí)代，而不僅僅是美國(guó)化。這是因?yàn)閺娜蚧慕嵌人伎?，?huì)讓我們注意到非美國(guó)的文化和意識(shí)形態(tài)在世界各地的不同影響。在二十世紀(jì)的大部分時(shí)間里，來(lái)自蘇聯(lián)、中國(guó)、古巴等共產(chǎn)主義國(guó)家的意識(shí)形態(tài)的全球影響就是一個(gè)明顯的例子。其他例子包括來(lái)自中東的伊斯蘭意識(shí)形態(tài)的影響。

在文化方面，美國(guó)的文化產(chǎn)業(yè)（如好萊塢電影或流行音樂(lè)）在世界大部分地區(qū)都有廣泛的影響。然而，近幾十年來(lái)，來(lái)自其他地方的影響已經(jīng)與之不相伯仲，某些地區(qū)甚至超過(guò)了美國(guó)。

I agree that the influence of American culture has been important in many parts of the world throughout much of the 20th century. Nevertheless, I think it is better to think of that era in terms of globalization rather than simply of Americanization. This is because thinking in terms of globalization draws our attention to the diverse influences that non-American cultures and ideologies have had around the world. The global influence of ideologies emanating from communist states such as the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, for much of the twentieth century is one obvious case. Other examples include the impact of Islamic ideologies coming from the Middle East.

龔鵬程教授：五十年前世界衛(wèi)生組織的全球天花根除計(jì)劃，令人感激。未來(lái)這類計(jì)劃將還有些什么？

埃雷茲·馬內(nèi)拉：對(duì)于我們，國(guó)際合作解決全球問(wèn)題有很大的空間，世界衛(wèi)生組織的天花根除計(jì)劃就是一個(gè)例子。當(dāng)然，在新冠疫情之后，我們都意識(shí)到，疾病控制問(wèn)題在全球范圍內(nèi)仍然很重要。減少溫室氣體排放是另一個(gè)沒(méi)有廣泛國(guó)際合作就無(wú)法解決的問(wèn)題。我們只能希望世界各國(guó)領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人和人民有智慧和遠(yuǎn)見(jiàn)，建立和維持雙邊和多邊的框架，以促進(jìn)未來(lái)的這種合作。

There is a great deal of room in our world for international cooperation to solve global problems, as was exemplified in the WHO’s smallpox eradication program. In the wake of the Covid-19 pandemic, of course, we all realize that Issues of disease control remain important globally. The reduction of greenhouse gas emissions is another problem that cannot be solved without broad international cooperation. One can only hope that world leaders and peoples will have the wisdom and foresight to build and sustain the frameworks, both bilateral and multilateral, that will facilitate such cooperation in the future.

龔鵬程教授：當(dāng)年美國(guó)人與全球南方的關(guān)系，似乎只是從地理關(guān)系上看，現(xiàn)在與近東中東的關(guān)系，卻牽扯種族、宗教與文化。與東北亞、東南亞，問(wèn)題又跟近東中東各不相同。您認(rèn)為俄烏戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)之后，調(diào)整美國(guó)人與全球東方的關(guān)系，會(huì)不會(huì)成為新的熱點(diǎn)？

埃雷茲·馬內(nèi)拉：在我看來(lái)，美國(guó)與東亞，特別是與中國(guó)的關(guān)系，幾個(gè)世紀(jì)以來(lái)一直很重要。在我教授的中美關(guān)系史課程中，我對(duì)我的學(xué)生提出的一個(gè)觀點(diǎn)是，自美國(guó)國(guó)家誕生以來(lái)，與中國(guó)的關(guān)系對(duì)美國(guó)人來(lái)說(shuō)一直是至關(guān)重要的。畢竟，我問(wèn)他們，在著名的波士頓傾茶事件中，那引起爭(zhēng)議的點(diǎn)燃了美國(guó)革命的茶葉是哪里來(lái)的？當(dāng)然，它來(lái)自中國(guó)。

因此，雖然美國(guó)確實(shí)在中東有重要的利益，特別是在1970年代石油危機(jī)以來(lái)的幾十年里，但在我看來(lái)，美國(guó)與亞洲，特別是與中國(guó)關(guān)系的歷史要深得多，而且在未來(lái)只會(huì)越來(lái)越重要。因此，為了回答您的問(wèn)題，我不僅認(rèn)為調(diào)整與亞洲的關(guān)系將是烏克蘭戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)（我希望很快結(jié)束）之后的一個(gè)"熱門話題"；而且我認(rèn)為，這種調(diào)整事實(shí)上已經(jīng)成為美國(guó)外交關(guān)系的核心話題，并將在可預(yù)見(jiàn)的未來(lái)繼續(xù)占據(jù)重要地位。

In my view, the relationship between the United States and East Asia, and particularly with China, has been important for centuries. A point I make to my students in the course I teach on the history Sino-American relations is that the relationship to China has been of central importance to Americans since the very birth of the nation. After all, I ask them, where did the tea come from that was the source of controversy in the famous Boston Tea Party that helped launch the American Revolution? It came, of course, from China!

So, while it is true that the United States has had important interests in the Middle East, particularly in the decades since the oil crises of the 1970s, in my view the history of its relationship with Asia, and especially with China, runs much deeper and will only grow in importance in the future. So, to answer your question, not only do I think that adjusting relations with Asia will be a “hot topic” after the war in Ukraine (which I hope will end very soon). I think that this adjustment has, in fact, been the central topic in US foreign relations for some time now and will continue to occupy a place of importance into the foreseeable future.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺(tái)北，臺(tái)灣師范大學(xué)博士，當(dāng)代著名學(xué)者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學(xué)、出版社、雜志社、書(shū)院等，并規(guī)劃城市建設(shè)、主題園區(qū)等多處。講學(xué)于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺(tái)北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過(guò)書(shū)法展?，F(xiàn)為中國(guó)孔子博物館名譽(yù)館長(zhǎng)、美國(guó)龔鵬程基金會(huì)主席。